For six or so months, we were told
that
quiet diplomacy, to keep quiet, to trust
that the government are doing what
they're doing and everything's doing it
behind closed doors. Um, didn't see any
movement. And to be fair, the the one
thing that really triggered us going
public was the 12-day war. At that
point, they were due to be moved to
Evin, which was subsequently bombed. Um,
and we didn't know where they were.
Quite simply, the government had lost
track of them. There was nobody on the
ground to locate them. Um, luckily we
found out they hadn't been transferred.
They were still in car park. But that
period of time of not knowing was the
worst of the whole 11 months that we've
been endured because you are just
constantly thinking the worst and you've
got no way of clarifying it.
>>
And what's the latest now? What what are
you hearing from your own government but
also anything from the Iranians at all?
>>
I mean from the government side it's
they've been to court now three times.
Um, both separately, different amount of
times. Sometimes we're organized, others
will whist away, but we're being told,
you know, there's this policy to kind of
sit and wait and ride out the judicial
process. Uh, and at the moment they're
in limbo. Um, and that's how it feels is
that we've got two states that are just
at stalemate waiting for one to make a
move.
>>
And you've been able to talk to your
mother though. I mean, what what have
you been able to say to each other and
what's that been like for you?
>>
Yeah, I mean, so she did a hunger
strike. They both did a hunger strike
recently in the last couple of weeks.
Uh, and they were at their wits' end. You
know, it was a big cry for help because
they'd been promised to be able to see
each other, but also to call family. Um,
and that hadn't happened. And the first
call I got from my mom, spirits were
very low. You could tell in her voice
she was broken. Um, very, very emotional
and she was on sort of day five of the
hunger strike.
>>
What's What was that like for you to
hear that in your mother's voice? To
hear the person that means the most to
you in the world suffering is the most
horrific experience I can share to be
honest with you. Um
she's my source of strength of
inspiration. Always has been since I was
a kid and and you know for once it was
probably roles reversed. I felt like the
parent at this point, right, in trying
to keep calm and and reassure and say
keep your strength, you know, and not
telling her what to do because it's her
own body, but I was very concerned that
she wasn't eating and putting herself
through more
just move to more turmoil, right?
Because she's already enduring enough.
So, let's bring Richard in here because
obviously you you've been through that,
of course, as well. It reminds me so
much of what you said to me over the
years when Nazene was incarcerated.
Talking to her over the phone was a
roller coaster for you as well. What
what do you say to Joe? I mean to deal
with the emotions of his ordeal, but
also how you how he deals with the
governments um because you've of
course been advising him as well,
haven't you?
>>
Yeah, it brings back all sorts of
memories. Um and I do remember actually
sort of in Nazanin's case those early
months
where we don't know what's going on. We
fear the worst. Sometimes our fears
aren't, you know, it's worse than that.
Sometimes it's better than that. But I I
do remember the coldness of her on the
phone when she was on hunger strike and
how distant and and feeling like gosh
the powerlessness. What what can we do
to keep her going? And in terms of
advice, I mean there isn't one
size-fits-all. Um different you know our
journey was our journey. Joe's journey
will be his. But but I know for me the
more sunlight there was the more the
government justified or had to justify
what on earth they were doing 'cause it
looked to me for a long time like they
weren't doing very much at all. Um and
it was very opaque language about
raising concerns and so on.
>>
And you'd hope the British government
and the Foreign Office have learned a
lot from your ordeal. Joe, do you think
that's the case? Are they doing enough
for you to to help you with uh what's
going on?
>>
In all honesty, no. Um there's too many
similarities to Richard Nazanin's case
which are for the for the worse. You
know, it is that passiveness to to
subdue what you're saying. Um
and it's not it's just taking
accountability. I just don't feel like
that's what they're doing. It's that
they they themselves are being very
passive. You know, they're they've got
two UK citizens that are accused of
spying for the British state, but then
not coming out and defending them um and
calling it for what it is. You know,
that's I think the biggest thing for me
is that you need to stand up for for
your citizens. Um, you know, and call it
out. It's arbitrary detention quite
clearly. It's almost hostage-taking at
this point. Well, it is hostage-taking in
my eyes.
>>
I mean, the foreign office has said in
the past that they don't want to give
too much and they don't want you to give
too much currency uh to, you know, to to
Lindsay and Craig and and to Nazine in
the past and raising too much of a
hullabaloo about it actually makes them
makes the other side want to keep them
for longer. Does that kind of convince
you at all? Is there any justification?
>>
Not at all. No. I mean, why why wouldn't
I want to raise the case, right? It's my
mom and and my stepdad, and I want them
home desperately. So, whatever I've got
to do to to make that happen, I'm going
to. Um, and the the thing that really
annoys me about what they say in in in
that sense is that they're out there. If
they're on charges of shoplifting,
potentially, that's understandable.
Let's see the court of law. Let's go
through it. If they've they've been
caught doing, they haven't. and they've
been accused of espionage, which is
state level political charges, right?
They're not spies. It's quite simple.
>>
Richard, we, as you referring to,
The TV series is out now about your
story and Nazanine's uh story. Do you
think that will have an effect as well?
Sometimes drama, more than journalism,
actually does have an effect on
government. And what's it been like for
you to kind of, I guess, relive what you
went through by watching it on screen?
>>
Yeah, it's tough to revisit it. Um, you
know, we all like to remember the good
times and and you know, it's tough those
those early days and anyone that's
watched it, it's you know, the last
episode's nice, but the first episode's
full-on. Um, and you know, you can see me
getting a bit triggered by some of the
things that Joe's saying, but
actually the drama where it's a story
comes about very strongly. Um, so
Nazine, for example, didn't want to
watch it. Like I was the one that did
the checks to check, you know, how
accurate it was. Yeah, it does bring
back some tough times. Um, but you're
right that the reason for doing it was
was hopefully as a warning that people
would learn the lessons that that this
is what we went through. We went through
this because the Iranian state is the
way it is and it does just take pluck
people from obscurity and use them. Um,
and we we did it also because the
British government in our case didn't
step up, didn't protect, and you'd
hope there would be uh, you know, a
learning of the lessons. So do do I
think the government has learned the
lessons? Well, you know,
the government when they came into power
made all these promises about how they were
going to establish a hostage envoy. They
were going to put a right to consular
protection and um in law so that we
would have fair treatment. Hasn't
happened yet. Um and it does feel to me
that that I'm, you know, hearing too
many echoes of our experience in the
experience of Joe's family and
others.
>>
I remember Richard, you saying to me, I
said to you, how do you actually
cope with this? because you had
extraordinary courage and great courage
to be able to actually relive it.
watching the TV series, but you said you
keep it up until sometimes you go home
and then you kind of fall apart for a
while.
>>
So, so exactly that. I I I mean, as Joe
said, I I would cope in compartments.
So, I'd do this thing. I wouldn't do
this. I wouldn't like to watch things
back. And and that would work for a
while and then there are days where the
where the wheels come off and you just
have to accept we're not, you know, we
can all step into battle mode, but we're
not built for battle forever. And to
just, yeah, you know, be kind to
yourself.
>>
I'm sure that helps, Joe,
>>
massively. Yeah, it does. You know, and
and I think it's it's the right point is
because some days I feel like I'm
winning the battle, right? And other
days I feel like I'm being pummeled. You
have to be present every day. I let
myself get upset because they're natural
emotions. I get I get angry, I get
frustrated, I you know, I cry. I laugh
sometimes because I I look at back at
memories. You I think all of those
emotions are completely normal.
>>
And what's the latest about what you
know from for both of them? They're not
with each other, are they? Being held
separately. What do we know about their
health, their welfare?
>>
Yeah, I mean, so they they did get to
see each other on Sunday, but when they
got to see see each other, they're in a
room which is, you know, um, it's barred
cells, it's dirty sheets, the
cockroaches in a room. This isn't, uh, the
rits or anything like that. So, you
know, although it's nice they can be in
each other's company, it's not where
you'd want to choose to be in each
other's company, right?
>>
And I suppose the good news though is
that you know it has ended well. It
ended the story ended well for Richard
and hopefully it will for you as well.
Does that keep you does that keep you
going?
>>
Yeah, absolutely. It's the hope that
keeps you going, right? Is that there is
hopefully a happy ending, which I'm I'm
Yeah, I I I definitely think there is
going to be a happy ending at some
point, but I just, you know, I hoping we
can learn lessons and that it isn't
five, six years down the line when that
happy ending comes. I'll take it
whenever it comes, but I'd like it to be
a lot sooner than
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