Watch and Learn - Maggie Haberman & Jonathan Swan - On “Regime Change” & Inside The Trump Presidency

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The book is Regime Change.

The book is Regime Change

Now, this is-- it's out now, yes?

Now this is- it's out now yes

No.

It is not out now.

It is not out now

You have a secret copy.

You have a secret copy

When does it come out?

When does it come out

Tomorrow.

Tomorrow

Tomorrow.

Tomorrow

So when this airs, we'll be jumping the embargo.

So when this airs we'll be jumping the embargo

- It's kind of broken, right? - Yeah.

It's kind of broken right Yeah

I think we're well past that.

I think we're well past that

JON STEWART: Make me feel special, just for tonight.

JON STEWART: Make me feel special just for tonight

So it's not embargoed.

So it's not embargoed

How--

How-

Ish.

Ish

How many people did--

How many people did-

you have information in here from inside the Situation Room,

you have information in here from inside the Situation Room

where they're having a meeting to discuss

the damage from the Epstein files

There's only five people in the room, six?

There's only five people in the room six

How many people were in the room?

How many people were in the room

There were a couple of meetings

that we describe in the book.

that we describe in the book

And so there is one which was about a half a dozen people.

And so there is one which was about a half a dozen people

And then there were others with multiple people--

And then there were others with multiple people-

the senior levels of the White House, the DOJ, and so forth.

the senior levels of the White House the DOJ and so forth

You have-- so you have information.

You have- so you have information

Six people are in the room.

Six people are in the room

Without giving away the secret, who's the rat?

Without giving away the secret who's the rat

[LAUGHTER]

LAUGHTER

Tell me the rat.

Tell me the rat

Who-- who-- is it Bessent?

Who- who- is it Bessent

It's-- it's Lutnick.

It's- it's Lutnick

You sound like Trump right now.

You sound like Trump right now

Yeah really.

Yeah really

Can I ask--

Can I ask-

when I read the book, honestly, there

when I read the book honestly there

was a part of me that thought.

was a part of me that thought

I bet Trump called them.

I bet Trump called them

Like, he-- some of this--

Like he- some of this-

is a lot of this information from Trump?

is a lot of this information from Trump

He wasn't in these meetings.

He wasn't in these meetings

Yeah.

Yeah

They had the Epstein meetings without him

because they knew he didn't want to talk about Epstein.

because they knew he didn't want to talk about Epstein

Right.

Right

This was to-- this was to protect against him

This was to- this was to protect against him

not wanting to discuss this and leaks.

not wanting to discuss this and leaks

Those were the reasons that these meetings happened.

Those were the reasons that these meetings happened

JON STEWART: How'd that go?

JON STEWART: How'd that go

I hope you're enjoying the book, Jon.

I hope you're enjoying the book Jon

I am enjoying it, but I am baffled that this

I am enjoying it but I am baffled that this

administration, who is-- they are so tight knit and

administration who is- they are so tight knit and

so loyalist, that you would be able

so loyalist that you would be able

to glean this-- did you have--

to glean this- did you have-

was it on tape?

was it on tape

Is that-- people have suggested it might be on tape.

Is that- people have suggested it might be on tape

Yeah.

Yeah

We're not going to speculate or talk about that.

We're not going to speculate or talk about that

I'm not asking you to speculate.

I'm not asking you to speculate

I'm asking you to tell me.

I'm asking you to tell me

[LAUGHTER]

LAUGHTER

We're not--

We're not-

I'm asking you to give me--

I'm asking you to give me-

how?

how

We-- we appreciate you.

We- we appreciate you

We're not going to talk about sourcing.

We're not going to talk about sourcing

No. And I wouldn't.

No And I wouldn't

And I wouldn't ask you to.

And I wouldn't ask you to

Would you tell me to, or will you tell him to?

Would you tell me to or will you tell him to

What I would do is--

What I would do is-

I'm going to say a name.

I'm going to say a name

[LAUGHTER]

LAUGHTER

Are you even surprised at the level of access and information

that you got?

that you got

When you went into this, did you

When you went into this did you

think you would get people to grant

you the kind of inside information

that you were granted?

that you were granted

It was really hard.

It was really hard

I mean, this presidency, for lots of reasons,

I mean this presidency for lots of reasons

is almost unrecognizable from his first term.

is almost unrecognizable from his first term

But--

But-

JON STEWART: It's almost unrecognizable as a presidency.

JON STEWART: It's almost unrecognizable as a presidency

It is, actually. No, no.

It is actually No no

MAGGIE HABERMAN: That's true. That's the title.

MAGGIE HABERMAN: That's true That's the title

I mean, that's really the premise of our book.

I mean that's really the premise of our book

We're seeing a form of regime change in our own country.

We're seeing a form of regime change in our own country

It's a very-- we haven't seen anything like this.

It's a very- we haven't seen anything like this

But in the first term, there was prolific leaking.

But in the first term there was prolific leaking

And one of the biggest pieces of nonsense in this term-- and

And one of the biggest pieces of nonsense in this term- and

there's a lot of it-- is that they're the most transparent

there's a lot of it- is that they're the most transparent

administration there is.

administration there is

Actually, they're very good at keeping

Actually they're very good at keeping

secrets when they want to.

secrets when they want to

The perfect example most recently

is this memorandum of understanding

to end the Iran war.

to end the Iran war

Very senior people in the government

had not seen that document-- very, very senior people.

had not seen that document- very very senior people

Only the tiniest number of people had seen it.

Only the tiniest number of people had seen it

So this almost killed--

So this almost killed-

I mean, this was really hard.

I mean this was really hard

We've both covered him for a long time.

We've both covered him for a long time

I think people feel like this stuff spills out.

I think people feel like this stuff spills out

It's hard.

It's hard

It's hard reporting.

It's hard reporting

How do you-- when you're reporting on something

How do you- when you're reporting on something

like that-- here's-- here's something

like that- here's- here's something

that that crosses my mind.

that that crosses my mind

One thing that you do glean from the book

is, every move they make is intentional,

is every move they make is intentional

including the misinformation and access that they give you.

including the misinformation and access that they give you

So they might have a scenario where--

So they might have a scenario where-

you talk about it, when the USAID or the Musk memos

you talk about it when the USAID or the Musk memos

were coming out.

were coming out

And they thought, oh, OK, we need

And they thought oh OK we need

something to distract this.

something to distract this

Why don't we announce that I'm going to prosecute Obama?

Why don't we announce that I'm going to prosecute Obama

To reopen Gitmo.

To reopen Gitmo

To reopen-- that's what it was, to reopen Gitmo.

To reopen- that's what it was to reopen Gitmo

So if they are purposefully misinforming,

So if they are purposefully misinforming

how do you guard against that finding

its way into your reporting?

its way into your reporting

It's a good question.

It's a good question

It is a good--

It is a good-

you know what?

you know what

[LAUGHTER]

LAUGHTER

Thank you.

Thank you

[LAUGHTER]

LAUGHTER

I'm a [BLEEP] journalist.

I'm a BLEEP journalist

[LAUGHTER]

LAUGHTER

But how-- what do you do?

But how- what do you do

[APPLAUSE]

APPLAUSE

Part of it is the fact that we've

been covering his world for so long,

been covering his world for so long

we actually have a sense of who is

telling the truth, who is not.

telling the truth who is not

But we don't just take one person's word for it.

But we don't just take one person's word for it

This is not-- I was just in this meeting,

This is not- I was just in this meeting

and let me tell you about the heroics.

and let me tell you about the heroics

We spent an enormous amount of time verifying

what is in this book.

what is in this book

If we were at all--

If we were at all-

it pained us, how much we did not put in the book.

it pained us how much we did not put in the book

We either didn't put it in because it really

wasn't relevant anymore or because we couldn't confirm

it to our satisfaction.

it to our satisfaction

And there are things we are still trying to confirm.

And there are things we are still trying to confirm

But what is in here, we are confident of.

But what is in here we are confident of

That doesn't mean that I'm not confident

that the White House will at some point say we're wrong.

that the White House will at some point say we're wrong

I'm sure they will.

I'm sure they will

But that's--

But that's-

But even that's purposeful, that--

But even that's purposeful that-

Well, for sure.

Well for sure

But we assume-- I mean, we've gotten

But we assume- I mean we've gotten

to a point where we just assume false until proven otherwise.

to a point where we just assume false until proven otherwise

I mean, you assume what you're being told is

I mean you assume what you're being told is

false until proven otherwise.

false until proven otherwise

You don't take anyone's word for it.

You don't take anyone's word for it

There's no-- what is it, Reagan-- trust, but verify?

There's no- what is it Reagan- trust but verify

There's no trust.

There's no trust

You have-- there's a story in here that--

You have- there's a story in here that-

that Donald Trump called Howard Lutnick a pussy.

that Donald Trump called Howard Lutnick a pussy

Accurate.

Accurate

Yeah.

Yeah

[LAUGHTER]

LAUGHTER

I'm not here to speculate.

I'm not here to speculate

I'm not saying--

I'm not saying-

[LAUGHTER]

LAUGHTER

I'm not saying it's accurate he is a pussy.

I'm not saying it's accurate he is a pussy

I'm--

I'm-

It happened-- that it happened.

It happened- that it happened

[CHEERING APPLAUSE]

CHEERING APPLAUSE

I-- I'm glad you issued that correction.

I- I'm glad you issued that correction

[LAUGHTER]

LAUGHTER

But so then do you call a bunch of people and have to go,

But so then do you call a bunch of people and have to go

hey, I heard Trump called Lutnick a pussy?

hey I heard Trump called Lutnick a pussy

Yeah.

Yeah

Yes.

Yes

JON STEWART: True?

JON STEWART: True

We asked Trump directly.

We asked Trump directly

JON STEWART: You asked him that?

JON STEWART: You asked him that

Yeah. We asked him directly.

Yeah We asked him directly

And he certainly--

And he certainly-

He didn't deny it.

He didn't deny it

--didn't push back on it.

-didn't push back on it

He didn't say, yes, that's true.

He didn't say yes that's true

We had other confirmations.

We had other confirmations

But it wasn't something he was racing to deny.

But it wasn't something he was racing to deny

The thing about this book is, you can--

The thing about this book is you can-

there's a lot of reporting historically

over Trump which is sort of--

over Trump which is sort of-

I would call it wispy.

I would call it wispy

I'm not making-- like, it's hard to get inside the room.

I'm not making- like it's hard to get inside the room

But when I say wispy, it's like, Trump is thinking this.

But when I say wispy it's like Trump is thinking this

Trump is saying this.

Trump is saying this

We say, on this day, at this time, in this room,

We say on this day at this time in this room

and here are the people around the room, this was said.

and here are the people around the room this was said

And that was either--

And that was either-

that either happened, or it didn't happen.

that either happened or it didn't happen

You can-- like, there's an element of,

You can- like there's an element of

you can check our work a little bit more

than if we just said Donald Trump amorphously

was thinking this thing, or on this Air Force One flight,

was thinking this thing or on this Air Force One flight

this was said.

this was said

We tried to do that in this book

because we think it's important that you can anchor something

in a scene and a setting.

in a scene and a setting

And people can hopefully have a bit

more faith in the reporting.

more faith in the reporting

What would you like this to-- because one thing that you

What would you like this to- because one thing that you

don't do is psychoanalyze or make judgments

about why it operates this way or the psychology

behind any of it.

behind any of it

So do that now for me.

So do that now for me

What's-- because here's what's very clear.

What's- because here's what's very clear

He understands the power of bending reality,

He understands the power of bending reality

and he does it with great ease.

and he does it with great ease

So this would be the type of question.

So this would be the type of question

Does he truly believe that the Democrats rigged

the 2020 election, vote wise?

the 2020 election vote wise

I'm not talking about when he gets into atmosphere.

I'm not talking about when he gets into atmosphere

Is that something he actually believes, or

Is that something he actually believes or

is it something that he strategically

proffers because he knows the reality-distorting effects

that that has on the larger game he's playing.

that that has on the larger game he's playing

It's hard to know often, which is why we don't get

It's hard to know often which is why we don't get

into psychoanalysis-- other than the fact that

into psychoanalysis- other than the fact that

we're also not psychiatrists.

we're also not psychiatrists

But it's hard to know when he actually believes something

or if he is just saying something over and over again,

or if he is just saying something over and over again

because he is very aware of the power of repetition and

the effect that it has on voters, on the media,

the effect that it has on voters on the media

on the general public, on other world leaders.

on the general public on other world leaders

In terms of the 2020 election, there

In terms of the 2020 election there

are many people around him in our reporting who

think he has convinced himself of that,

think he has convinced himself of that

that he does now believe that.

that he does now believe that

I also don't know that whether he believes

that really matters, because so many

that really matters because so many

of his own government in 2020 said this was not the case.

of his own government in 2020 said this was not the case

JON STEWART: And why he flees interviews when

he's asked to litigate it.

he's asked to litigate it

What do you think is the best way to-- you did this.

What do you think is the best way to- you did this

In 2020, you sat down with Trump,

In 2020 you sat down with Trump

and you were talking about COVID deaths.

and you were talking about COVID deaths

And he was making the case, I think,

And he was making the case I think

about the minimization of it.

about the minimization of it

And you brought out facts and figures,

And you brought out facts and figures

and you showed them to him.

and you showed them to him

And it was like the world stopped.

And it was like the world stopped

Like, people went crazy for it because they

Like people went crazy for it because they

hadn't seen him litigated.

hadn't seen him litigated

Is that the way to report on him?

Is that the way to report on him

Because we really don't do that very often.

Because we really don't do that very often

It's interesting you use the word litigated,

It's interesting you use the word litigated

because the way I thought about that interview

was, I was litigating reality with Trump.

was I was litigating reality with Trump

And it was actually the opposite of what you said.

And it was actually the opposite of what you said

He handed me the sheet of paper.

He handed me the sheet of paper

He handed you the sheet.

He handed you the sheet

But-- no, no, no, but it was important because--

But- no no no but it was important because-

the thing that drives me crazy, often,

the thing that drives me crazy often

watching certain interviews with Trump,

watching certain interviews with Trump

is the tendency to move on.

is the tendency to move on

(WHISPERING) Yes!

WHISPERING Yes

And it just drives me--

And it just drives me-

(WHISPERING) Yes!

WHISPERING Yes

--really crazy because--

-really crazy because-

don't move on. Stay.

don't move on Stay

Stay. - Yes!

Stay Yes

- So this was-- - Sit!

So this was- Sit

Stay! Heel!

Stay Heel

Yes! - Yeah.

Yes Yeah

So this-- this was a moment where I could have moved on.

So this- this was a moment where I could have moved on

I actually had planned to move on.

I actually had planned to move on

We'd spent about 20 minutes talking about COVID.

We'd spent about 20 minutes talking about COVID

And I was ready to--

And I was ready to-

there was a lot of other things to talk about.

there was a lot of other things to talk about

I only had half an hour, technically.

I only had half an hour technically

But then I could tell he wanted to hand me this document.

But then I could tell he wanted to hand me this document

I was like, what's this [BLEEP] document?

I was like what's this BLEEP document

So he hands me this document.

So he hands me this document

And it took me a moment to understand what it was,

And it took me a moment to understand what it was

but it looked like it had been put together by an intern.

but it looked like it had been put together by an intern

And it was essentially this chart

where he was trying to argue to me that we're winning

on death, basically, on COVID.

on death basically on COVID

And it was really preposterous.

And it was really preposterous

But you have to sit there, absorb it, and

But you have to sit there absorb it and

then pop the reality bubble with a needle.

then pop the reality bubble with a needle

But why is that so challenging?

But why is that so challenging

It seems very basic.

It seems very basic

And yet, even-- it's very difficult to execute it.

And yet even- it's very difficult to execute it

So why is that?

So why is that

Well, it used to be somewhat easier.

Well it used to be somewhat easier

Although, I will say that Jonathan

Although I will say that Jonathan

did the single best television interview with Trump

that has existed.

that has existed

They have structured this White House, the press corps,

They have structured this White House the press corps

so that it is primarily people or

have people who they consider to be friendly to them.

have people who they consider to be friendly to them

They control the media pool that is in there now.

They control the media pool that is in there now

They control the seats.

They control the seats

Routinely, the only person really challenging him

Routinely the only person really challenging him

aggressively-- and not rudely or unprofessionally--

aggressively- and not rudely or unprofessionally-

is Kaitlan Collins.

is Kaitlan Collins

Collins killed him.

Collins killed him

And she takes an enormous--

And she takes an enormous-

No question.

No question

And she takes an enormous amount of shit.

And she takes an enormous amount of shit

And she keeps a total straight face.

And she keeps a total straight face

But she doesn't have backup.

But she doesn't have backup

In the old days, when we would be in the pool--

In the old days when we would be in the pool-

even in the term one-- and they made it harder,

even in the term one- and they made it harder

but it was still doable.

but it was still doable

You'd ask a question.

You'd ask a question

Somebody else in the pool would follow up on your question.

Somebody else in the pool would follow up on your question

Now it is, you ask a question about Ukraine, Iran--

Now it is you ask a question about Ukraine Iran-

I can go on and on.

I can go on and on

And he turns to the Reflecting Pool,

And he turns to the Reflecting Pool

and it's 20 minutes of him just talking.

and it's 20 minutes of him just talking

And so it is much more challenging.

And so it is much more challenging

It is also why-- you know, this has

It is also why- you know this has

come up a lot as we've been talking

to people about this book.

to people about this book

But we don't-- a lot of reporters have his cell

But we don't- a lot of reporters have his cell

phone number now, obviously. That's--

phone number now obviously That's-

Oh.

I got it right here.

I got it right here

I totally would believe--

I totally would believe-

Do you have his cell phone number?

Do you have his cell phone number

Yes. I have his cell phone number.

Yes I have his cell phone number

Can we call him right now?

Can we call him right now

Let's not.

Let's not

[LAUGHTER]

LAUGHTER

That'd be crazy.

That'd be crazy

You know what you should do?

You know what you should do

[CHEERING]

CHEERING

This is-- it's probably a little [BLEEP] up.

This is- it's probably a little BLEEP up

And you guys are professionals.

And you guys are professionals

But what if I call him as his pool guy?

But what if I call him as his pool guy

[LAUGHTER]

LAUGHTER

And I just call him, and I'd be like, sir, I'll tell you,

And I just call him and I'd be like sir I'll tell you

these [BLEEP] thing just stays green.

these BLEEP thing just stays green

There's nothing I can do.

There's nothing I can do

I can't even tell ya.

I can't even tell ya

I don't know what's going on.

I don't know what's going on

A lot of people have his number.

A lot of people have his number

And for reporters, it's-- wow, I

And for reporters it's- wow I

have the president's number, and

have the president's number and

I can speak to him directly.

I can speak to him directly

JON STEWART: There's a flattery to it.

JON STEWART: There's a flattery to it

And he controls the terms, right?

And he controls the terms right

There have been some pieces of news that have come out,

There have been some pieces of news that have come out

but generally speaking, it's him setting the agenda.

but generally speaking it's him setting the agenda

He says one thing here.

He says one thing here

He says something totally different 15 minutes later.

He says something totally different 15 minutes later

And it's just him flooding the zone.

And it's just him flooding the zone

And it's what he did in New York, when

And it's what he did in New York when

he was a tabloid guy, forever.

he was a tabloid guy forever

No question.

No question

But this-- this gets to the heart of--

But this- this gets to the heart of-

it's weaponized access.

it's weaponized access

And I'll tell you-- - But we're not doing--

And I'll tell you- But we're not doing-

No no no no no.

No no no no no

I'm not-- you guys are great.

I'm not- you guys are great

I'm talking about the other people.

I'm talking about the other people

[MUMBLING]

MUMBLING

I'm not talking about them.

I'm not talking about them

MAGGIE HABERMAN: The other people--

MAGGIE HABERMAN: The other people-

I'm talking about these other people.

I'm talking about these other people

The other people also-- there are many who do a good job.

The other people also- there are many who do a good job

But, yes, we don't--

But yes we don't-

Hold on one second.

Hold on one second

I mean, everybody's doing a good job.

I mean everybody's doing a good job

[LAUGHTER]

LAUGHTER

I don't know-- I don't know what I was thinking.

I don't know- I don't know what I was thinking

I'm just saying-- let me explain why.

I'm just saying- let me explain why

Because this is the gist of it.

Because this is the gist of it

Judith Miller, right?

Judith Miller right

You remember Judith Miller, New York Times.

You remember Judith Miller New York Times

So she went to the White House, and

So she went to the White House and

they fed her information that Saddam Hussein had

aluminum tubes that could only be used for enriching uranium,

aluminum tubes that could only be used for enriching uranium

and he was making a nuclear weapon.

and he was making a nuclear weapon

And she wrote in the New York times,

And she wrote in the New York times

I have discovered, me and my partner,

I have discovered me and my partner

through our diligent reporting, that Saddam Hussein

through our diligent reporting that Saddam Hussein

has these tubes.

has these tubes

Dick Cheney goes on Meet the Press the next day and says,

Dick Cheney goes on Meet the Press the next day and says

the New York Times, no friend to this administration.

the New York Times no friend to this administration

But she was being used or was a willful participant

in a manipulation.

in a manipulation

And if that's the case, that the phone number--

And if that's the case that the phone number-

they understand that it's his terms,

they understand that it's his terms

then that access is actually worth less than journalism.

then that access is actually worth less than journalism

It's actually abetting.

It's actually abetting

It's aiding and abetting in the crimes that they commit.

It's aiding and abetting in the crimes that they commit

How does that end?

How does that end

How do we stop that?

How do we stop that

And is that something that you believe is a problem?

And is that something that you believe is a problem

Because it seems like it's a dangerous, dangerous problem

Because it seems like it's a dangerous dangerous problem

with this administration.

with this administration

We don't find it useful-- the reason

We don't find it useful- the reason

we don't call him on his cell phone

is because it's not useful.

is because it's not useful

I mean, what's he gonna do?

I mean what's he gonna do

It's a two- minute call, and he's

It's a two minute call and he's

gonna say how everything's great, and whatever.

gonna say how everything's great and whatever

And again, like, the book--

And again like the book-

you're not gonna get a detailed scene inside the Situation Room

that potentially includes information that's

damaging for the White House and the administration

from Donald Trump on a two minute call.

from Donald Trump on a two minute call

So the type of reporting we do--

So the type of reporting we do-

it's not actually possible to get that from a phone call

with Donald Trump.

with Donald Trump

I'm talking more about the cadence reporting,

I'm talking more about the cadence reporting

the 24-hour reporting--

the 24-hour reporting-

Yeah.

Yeah

--that, where it's not possible to have the kind

-that where it's not possible to have the kind

of reflection and analysis that you might have over

the quality of the sources.

the quality of the sources

But we don't do it for our daily reporting either.

But we don't do it for our daily reporting either

Right.

Right

Yeah, I mean, look, I can't speak to--

Yeah I mean look I can't speak to-

I mean, I can speak to but I'm not

I mean I can speak to but I'm not

going to speak to how every single person

in this White House press corps or in DC now does their jobs.

in this White House press corps or in DC now does their jobs

The media environment is very different.

The media environment is very different

Donald Trump obviously has taken advantage of that.

Donald Trump obviously has taken advantage of that

He came back to Washington-- and we talk

He came back to Washington- and we talk

about this a lot in the book--

about this a lot in the book-

to a very different set of power dynamics,

to a very different set of power dynamics

where you have media companies that are terrified of him.

where you have media companies that are terrified of him

We are very fortunate to work for one that is independent

and which he has no levers over--

and which he has no levers over-

And yet cares deeply about.

And yet cares deeply about

As much as he talks about The New York Times,

As much as he talks about The New York Times

he seems to care deeply about what you guys think of him.

he seems to care deeply about what you guys think of him

He-- he has a--

He- he has a-

specific relationship with The New York Times.

specific relationship with The New York Times

Anybody-- I mean, in his head.

Anybody- I mean in his head

I don't mean actually.

I don't mean actually

For anybody who wants to-- sorry.

For anybody who wants to- sorry

For anybody who wants to understand

how he looks at The New York Times,

how he looks at The New York Times

there was an episode of the daily podcast

that the times does where AG Sulzberger, our publisher,

that the times does where AG Sulzberger our publisher

went to the Oval Office with me and Peter Baker in 2019,

went to the Oval Office with me and Peter Baker in 2019

I think it was.

I think it was

And AG only went because Trump had invited

him to come off the record.

him to come off the record

And AG said, I'm not gonna come off the record,

And AG said I'm not gonna come off the record

but I will come if my reporters can interview you.

but I will come if my reporters can interview you

And so he joined us.

And so he joined us

And he used the opportunity to directly say

to Trump, the language you are using about a free press

to Trump the language you are using about a free press

is being used to embolden despots around the globe.

is being used to embolden despots around the globe

And Trump just kept saying, I think

And Trump just kept saying I think

I'm entitled to a good story from my paper

and my hometown paper, some version of that.

and my hometown paper some version of that

That is how he sees it.

That is how he sees it

And that is totally different--

And that is totally different-

It is not useful to us-- we did sit with him

It is not useful to us- we did sit with him

for an interview we requested repeatedly,

for an interview we requested repeatedly

but we made very clear it was a fact check interview.

but we made very clear it was a fact check interview

It was not to sit for open mic night.

It was not to sit for open mic night

And by the way, in that interview,

And by the way in that interview

he hands you a list of people from history

that he's been told he's more powerful than.

that he's been told he's more powerful than

And the list is Mao, Stalin, Hitler-- like, he doesn't go

And the list is Mao Stalin Hitler- like he doesn't go

with, like, George Washington.

with like George Washington

He goes with despots and tyrants and is like, [BLEEP]

He goes with despots and tyrants and is like BLEEP

those guys.

those guys

I'm bigger than them.

I'm bigger than them

- Top 10 is what he said to us. - The top 10.

Top 10 is what he said to us The top 10

Top 10, yeah.

Top 10 yeah

Is America too small for him now?

Is America too small for him now

Does he now view this as, I'm Alexander the Great?

Does he now view this as I'm Alexander the Great

Something to that, actually.

Something to that actually

I mean, Jonathan has a--

I mean Jonathan has a-

It was actually-- it was an extraordinary moment

It was actually- it was an extraordinary moment

because throughout the reporting of this book,

because throughout the reporting of this book

we had basically come to a thesis that he was far less

responsive to domestic politics than he was in the first term.

responsive to domestic politics than he was in the first term

The first term, if polls went down, stock market gyrations,

The first term if polls went down stock market gyrations

he'd be much more reactive.

he'd be much more reactive

It's not to say he doesn't think about that at all.

It's not to say he doesn't think about that at all

It's not--

It's not-

JON STEWART: He definitely thinks about it--

JON STEWART: He definitely thinks about it-

He definitely does. It's not black and white.

He definitely does It's not black and white

But he thinks about it far less.

But he thinks about it far less

And we were-- so one of the questions we were asking--

And we were- so one of the questions we were asking-

why is he willing to take much bigger risks

this term than last term?

this term than last term

I don't think he would've gone to war

in the same circumstances.

in the same circumstances

I don't think he would've taken America to war

in Iran last term, in the same circumstances.

in Iran last term in the same circumstances

I'm not sure he would've authorized the operation

to snatch a sovereign head of state

in his pajamas out of his bedroom.

in his pajamas out of his bedroom

That was a very risky--

That was a very risky-

American service members could've

died in that operation.

died in that operation

Thank God they didn't.

Thank God they didn't

When we sat across from him and he handed us that piece

of paper that he said was written by a historian--

of paper that he said was written by a historian-

it turns out it was written by a former

golf caddie for Gary Player--

golf caddie for Gary Player-

MAGGIE HABERMAN: Gary Player.

MAGGIE HABERMAN: Gary Player

But--

But-

[LAUGHTER]

LAUGHTER

But--

But-

Don't-- don't brush over that.

Don't- don't brush over that

[LAUGHTER]

LAUGHTER

He thought it was written by a historian?

He thought it was written by a historian

It was written by a golf caddie?

It was written by a golf caddie

- Yeah. - Yeah.

Yeah Yeah

This is a-- it's a--

This is a- it's a-

What, a golf caddie just came up and said, like--

What a golf caddie just came up and said like-

this Ken Burns handed me this.

this Ken Burns handed me this

Sort of.

Sort of

He was-- he was golfing with Gary Player, who he's

He was- he was golfing with Gary Player who he's

known for a very long time.

known for a very long time

We asked him a question about power and presidential power.

We asked him a question about power and presidential power

And he immediately said-- he sent

And he immediately said- he sent

his all-purpose aide, Natalie Harp, out

his all-purpose aide Natalie Harp out

and said, Natalie, get the documents.

and said Natalie get the documents

And he said, do you know who Gary Player is?

And he said do you know who Gary Player is

And we weren't quite sure where this was going.

And we weren't quite sure where this was going

And then he described golfing with Gary Player,

And then he described golfing with Gary Player

and Gary Player had this historian with him

named David King.

named David King

And we spent a while trying to figure out who David King was.

And we spent a while trying to figure out who David King was

They sent us the text.

They sent us the text

They said, he's a presidential historian.

They said he's a presidential historian

We tracked him down.

We tracked him down

Jonathan tracked him down.

Jonathan tracked him down

And he's a businessman and Gary Player's former

caddie, volunteer caddie.

caddie volunteer caddie

And he's a history buff, sure, but he's not a historian.

And he's a history buff sure but he's not a historian

Yeah no.

Yeah no

Listen, I get that.

Listen I get that

A lot of buffs out there. - There's a lot of buffs.

A lot of buffs out there There's a lot of buffs

Yeah. There's a lot of buffs.

Yeah There's a lot of buffs

Yeah.

Yeah

But it was interesting 'cause the document itself basically

just said, Donald Trump's the most powerful man who's ever

just said Donald Trump's the most powerful man who's ever

existed ever on the planet because he's in charge

of the US military and technology, but

of the US military and technology but

also willing to use the power.

also willing to use the power

And then the people--

And then the people-

JON STEWART: And he has planes.

JON STEWART: And he has planes

The people it compared him to, as you mentioned,

The people it compared him to as you mentioned

Mao, Stalin, Hitler-- there was no moral dimension to it.

Mao Stalin Hitler- there was no moral dimension to it

It was just expressed in terms of raw power.

It was just expressed in terms of raw power

And he was reading it out to us.

And he was reading it out to us

He was sitting-- we're sitting across the oval.

He was sitting- we're sitting across the oval

And he's, like, relishing.

And he's like relishing

He's like, Napoleon--

He's like Napoleon-

MAGGIE HABERMAN: He was delighted.

MAGGIE HABERMAN: He was delighted

--Mao, you know?

-Mao you know

And it's very clear that what he wants to do is reshape--

And it's very clear that what he wants to do is reshape-

reshape both America, but also the world.

reshape both America but also the world

He does, I think, want to be a Napoleonic-type of figure.

He does I think want to be a Napoleonic-type of figure

Has he read the whole book, though?

Has he read the whole book though

I mean--

I mean-

[LAUGHTER]

LAUGHTER

--it doesn't end that great for him.

-it doesn't end that great for him

No.

But we're still talking about Napoleon.

But we're still talking about Napoleon

Well, that's true, yes.

Well that's true yes

We are still talking about-- but this is maybe the most--

We are still talking about- but this is maybe the most-

and I'll get to-- what I took away from the book is

and I'll get to- what I took away from the book is

there's always people who are gonna want palace intrigue

and those kinds of things.

and those kinds of things

What I took away was process, that the process

What I took away was process that the process

of this White House is very much

The Apprentice or Shark Tank.

The Apprentice or Shark Tank

People come into his office and compete with an idea,

People come into his office and compete with an idea

and he chooses the one that he thinks

has the most pop for this episode of the show.

has the most pop for this episode of the show

And they do it, and no one follows up in a future episode.

And they do it and no one follows up in a future episode

So the tariffs go out there, and it's like, that's great.

So the tariffs go out there and it's like that's great

And then when it tanks the economy, nobody's like, hey,

And then when it tanks the economy nobody's like hey

we should probably revisit that.

we should probably revisit that

He's like, that's an old episode.

He's like that's an old episode

It's a lot of, it's all trailer, no movie.

It's a lot of it's all trailer no movie

It's all advertisement and no follow-through.

It's all advertisement and no follow-through

And so what you're seeing here-- the Iran war's

And so what you're seeing here- the Iran war's

is a great example.

is a great example

Obama's JCPOA was 18 months of very tough negotiations,

Obama's JCPOA was 18 months of very tough negotiations

and they did all those things.

and they did all those things

And Trump comes in, and he's like, how about I just

And Trump comes in and he's like how about I just

bomb them and we take a week.

bomb them and we take a week

And there's no follow-through.

And there's no follow-through

Is that what you've found there, that it's--

Is that what you've found there that it's-

A slightly different cast on that, I think.

A slightly different cast on that I think

I mean, look, it's definitely a White House

I mean look it's definitely a White House

that does not like process.

that does not like process

He doesn't like process.

He doesn't like process

JON STEWART: Or competence.

JON STEWART: Or competence

And one of the things that he and--

And one of the things that he and-

You can say it.

You can say it

And one of the things-- one of the things

And one of the things- one of the things

that he and Stephen Miller spent a lot of time on--

that he and Stephen Miller spent a lot of time on-

Ooh, did you feel that?

Ooh did you feel that

It got cold all of a sudden.

It got cold all of a sudden

Did you feel that?

Did you feel that

Did you feel that on the back of your neck?

Did you feel that on the back of your neck

That was weird.

That was weird

One of the things that he and Stephen Miller

spent a lot of time on, and obviously--

spent a lot of time on and obviously-

Say it three times.

Say it three times

Let's see if he comes.

Let's see if he comes

--see this episode.

-see this episode

[LAUGHTER]

LAUGHTER

Was essentially how to do things quickly

and how to claim powers that weren't actually

the executive branches, either because you could

the executive branches either because you could

declare national emergencies--

declare national emergencies-

JON STEWART: Insurrection Act.

JON STEWART: Insurrection Act

100%.

100

But it's across the board.

But it's across the board

It's a fentanyl emergency.

It's a fentanyl emergency

It's a border emergency, even though the border

It's a border emergency even though the border

crossings were down.

crossings were down

There is a refugee emergency, so we have to change

There is a refugee emergency so we have to change

asylum status and so forth.

asylum status and so forth

And Trump isn't really thinking about these processes.

And Trump isn't really thinking about these processes

He just wants things to be done fast.

He just wants things to be done fast

Stephen Miller was thinking about both.

Stephen Miller was thinking about both

And then Trump has other people who can offer

to get him things quickly.

to get him things quickly

On the tariffs-- the reason I'm interested in that being

On the tariffs- the reason I'm interested in that being

the thing you pointed to is this

was something he's kind of wanted to try for decades.

was something he's kind of wanted to try for decades

He did not have an economic theory of the case,

He did not have an economic theory of the case

about how tariffs would work.

about how tariffs would work

He thought tariffs were an incredible tool and

weapon and blunt instrument.

weapon and blunt instrument

And that is exactly how they were implemented.

And that is exactly how they were implemented

What you do see is him saying things like--

What you do see is him saying things like-

you know, jacking up the tariff rate to China--

you know jacking up the tariff rate to China-

on China for 145% and then saying, holy shit,

on China for 145 and then saying holy shit

or some version of that, when he learns that's how high

or some version of that when he learns that's how high

it is.

it is

And his whole government was quite scared

as they were not just approaching liberation day,

as they were not just approaching liberation day

but blowing past it.

but blowing past it

But don't you think-- because they're not-- the litmus

But don't you think- because they're not- the litmus

test isn't competence.

test isn't competence

It's loyalty.

It's loyalty

And the loyalty has to be given through humiliation rituals.

And the loyalty has to be given through humiliation rituals

Everybody that works for him has to go

through a humiliation ritual.

through a humiliation ritual

Those cabinet meetings are not discussions of policy.

Those cabinet meetings are not discussions of policy

They are public humiliation rituals of anyone who

wants to be in that office.

wants to be in that office

And they're very long.

And they're very long

There's no question about that.

There's no question about that

Well, because there's so much ass to kiss.

Well because there's so much ass to kiss

[LAUGHTER]

LAUGHTER

Respectfully respectfully.

Respectfully respectfully

[APPLAUSE]

APPLAUSE

How does this-- as you watch this careen down the hill,

How does this- as you watch this careen down the hill

as you project out-- we've got 2 and 1/2 more years of this.

as you project out- we've got 2 and 1/2 more years of this

Yeah yeah.

Yeah yeah

JON STEWART: If he thinks he's Mao and Stalin now,

JON STEWART: If he thinks he's Mao and Stalin now

where are we going?

where are we going

Well, part of the-- the book is really a story of hubris.

Well part of the- the book is really a story of hubris

I mean, he came in this second term--

I mean he came in this second term-

actually, it's a little deeper than

actually it's a little deeper than

what you were saying 'cause a lot of the people around him--

what you were saying 'cause a lot of the people around him-

there's an almost mystical belief in him,

there's an almost mystical belief in him

particularly the ones that went through the campaign with him.

particularly the ones that went through the campaign with him

It's Donald Trump is a figure of destiny

that survived four indictments, two assassination attempts,

that survived four indictments two assassination attempts

somehow won this election.

somehow won this election

Maybe-- in the first term when you would talk to senior aides,

Maybe- in the first term when you would talk to senior aides

a lot of them had absolute contempt for him,

a lot of them had absolute contempt for him

and they would mock him and say, this guy's dangerous.

and they would mock him and say this guy's dangerous

We're trying to stop him.

We're trying to stop him

You never hear that.

You never hear that

These are people who-- JON STEWART: Oh.

These are people who- JON STEWART: Oh

Oh, you never hear that. You never hear that.

Oh you never hear that You never hear that

JON STEWART: There's none of the backbiting now on that.

JON STEWART: There's none of the backbiting now on that

No no no.

No no no

These are people who believe in him.

These are people who believe in him

And actually, even when he says something that they think,

And actually even when he says something that they think

well maybe--

well maybe-

that's kind of out there.

that's kind of out there

Well, maybe he's picking up on something

Well maybe he's picking up on something

that we're not picking up on.

that we're not picking up on

There's a deference to his judgment.

There's a deference to his judgment

And the Iran war-- the Iran war's

And the Iran war- the Iran war's

actually the perfect example of that.

actually the perfect example of that

We have, in the book, this incredible sequence

We have in the book this incredible sequence

of events where Bibi Netanyahu comes

down to the Situation Room.

down to the Situation Room

JON STEWART: Great guy.

JON STEWART: Great guy

[LAUGHTER]

LAUGHTER

Sorry.

Sorry

[CHEERING]

CHEERING

He comes down to the Situation Room.

He comes down to the Situation Room

Go ahead.

Go ahead

[LAUGHTER]

LAUGHTER

He gave Trump this presentation

about regime change.

about regime change

Here's how it's gonna work in Iran,

Here's how it's gonna work in Iran

and here's the people who might take over and whatever.

and here's the people who might take over and whatever

Anyway, the CIA goes away overnight

Anyway the CIA goes away overnight

and does some analysis.

and does some analysis

They come back the next day in the Situation Room.

They come back the next day in the Situation Room

The analysts come, in and they say, this is total bullshit.

The analysts come in and they say this is total bullshit

This is, like, divorced from reality.

This is like divorced from reality

The CIA director, John Ratcliffe, tells Trump,

The CIA director John Ratcliffe tells Trump

it's farcical.

it's farcical

Rubio tells him it's bullshit.

Rubio tells him it's bullshit

And Trump says, you know, maybe it is.

And Trump says you know maybe it is

Maybe it isn't.

Maybe it isn't

But he had a gut feeling.

But he had a gut feeling

Again, this was a gut-driven decision.

Again this was a gut-driven decision

Trump thought this would be a fast war,

Trump thought this would be a fast war

that they would collapse quickly,

that they would collapse quickly

that this regime was a paper tiger.

that this regime was a paper tiger

And he was wrong. - And he--

And he was wrong And he-

He was wrong.

He was wrong

And what he said to Tucker Carlson,

And what he said to Tucker Carlson

I think, was-- actually encapsulates

I think was- actually encapsulates

what Jonathan's saying-- - Great guy.

what Jonathan's saying- Great guy

--and it just--

-and it just-

[LAUGHTER]

LAUGHTER

Which is most of what this presidency is now,

Which is most of what this presidency is now

which is everything's gonna--

which is everything's gonna-

Carlson was trying to talk him out of it, doing this war.

Carlson was trying to talk him out of it doing this war

And Trump says something to the effect of,

And Trump says something to the effect of

everything is going to be OK.

everything is going to be OK

Everything's gonna work out.

Everything's gonna work out

It always does.

It always does

JONATHAN SWAN: Because it always is.

JONATHAN SWAN: Because it always is

It always is. OK, yeah.

It always is OK yeah

And that is how he thinks. And so--

And that is how he thinks And so-

Well, because for him, it's that Norman Vincent Peale Power

Well because for him it's that Norman Vincent Peale Power

of Positive Thinking.

of Positive Thinking

But that-- it works out for him.

But that- it works out for him

But this brings us-- so we'll bring it around full circle

But this brings us- so we'll bring it around full circle

and end on this.

and end on this

So they have a mystical belief in his gut

that allows him to do this.

that allows him to do this

So he does it, and it shits the bed,

So he does it and it shits the bed

and we end up in a more dangerous, weaker position.

and we end up in a more dangerous weaker position

We elevate this theocracy to a level

of power in that part of the world

that they have never had before,

that they have never had before

and they are now at that position.

and they are now at that position

So in terms of litigating reality,

So in terms of litigating reality

now that this has come down, do they go,

now that this has come down do they go

hey, you took a swing; some of them work; some of them don't?

hey you took a swing; some of them work; some of them don't

Do they still believe in the mystical, messianic powers

Do they still believe in the mystical messianic powers

of Napoleon 2?

of Napoleon 2

Do they ever go, like, maybe that's Waterloo?

Do they ever go like maybe that's Waterloo

Like, how does reality not ever permeate

Like how does reality not ever permeate

this reality distortion field?

this reality distortion field

I think it's more nuanced than that.

I think it's more nuanced than that

I do-- - Of course it is.

I do- Of course it is

[LAUGHTER]

LAUGHTER

There are many people on his team

who thought this was a bad idea to start with, the war.

who thought this was a bad idea to start with the war

There was really only one person

who actually said that to Trump in a forceful way, which

who actually said that to Trump in a forceful way which

was Vance, and that actually irritated Trump to some extent.

was Vance and that actually irritated Trump to some extent

A lot of them didn't make the argument to him.

A lot of them didn't make the argument to him

It's very obvious to them, and actually, I

It's very obvious to them and actually I

think to him as well.

think to him as well

That's why he's doing such a fast reverse, basically saying,

That's why he's doing such a fast reverse basically saying

Bibi, you're out of control.

Bibi you're out of control

We've got to get out, willing to take this deal.

We've got to get out willing to take this deal

But he's gonna say, this is the best

But he's gonna say this is the best

deal that anybody's ever gotten and nobody's ever gotten it.

deal that anybody's ever gotten and nobody's ever gotten it

And Iran is weaker.

And Iran is weaker

And who's still buying that in the White House?

And who's still buying that in the White House

I don't think that many people still

buy it in the White House.

buy it in the White House

But I also don't think that you're gonna see a lot

of them quitting en masse.

of them quitting en masse

I mean, one of the things that we wrote about in the book

I mean one of the things that we wrote about in the book

was that some of his advisors were talking last year

about how the most disastrous thing for his presidency

would be if he got into a war with Iran and one of them said,

would be if he got into a war with Iran and one of them said

I will resign if that happens.

I will resign if that happens

And I can tell you, without telling you who,

And I can tell you without telling you who

that that person is still there, so--

that that person is still there so-

So JD Vance is still there.

So JD Vance is still there

[LAUGHTER]

LAUGHTER

That's what you're telling me.

That's what you're telling me

Remarkable.

Remarkable

[LAUGHTER]

LAUGHTER

I've enjoyed this.

I've enjoyed this

[LAUGHTER]

LAUGHTER

Please get this book.

Please get this book

It is out tomorrow.

It is out tomorrow

It's called Regime Change.

It's called Regime Change

Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Swan.

Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Swan

Dictionary

Tap ? for definitions, examples, pronunciation, and comprehension questions.

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