Watch and Learn - A. Mechele Dickerson - Restoring the American Middle Class One Policy at a Time

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By the way, for some odd reason,

By the way for some odd reason

tonight's audience, in the middle of a blizzard--

tonight's audience in the middle of a blizzard-

packed with Texas people.

packed with Texas people

Welcome.

Welcome

[CHEERING]

CHEERING

Ladies and gentlemen, there's been

Ladies and gentlemen there's been

some sort of weird nonverbal communication

between the Texas people.

between the Texas people

I don't know if that is a call to violence--

I don't know if that is a call to violence-

[LAUGHTER]

LAUGHTER

--or perhaps camaraderie.

-or perhaps camaraderie

But isn't that odd?

But isn't that odd

You came out-- and by the way, thank you

You came out- and by the way thank you

for coming in a little early because of the weather and all

that. So we really--

that So we really-

Wouldn't miss it for the world.

Wouldn't miss it for the world

Thank you so much.

Thank you so much

I'm delighted you're here.

I'm delighted you're here

This is such music to my ears, this book,

This is such music to my ears this book

A Middle-Class New Deal.

A Middle-Class New Deal

I want to talk to you about one of the myths--

I want to talk to you about one of the myths-

I guess misunderstandings, maybe, about our middle class--

I guess misunderstandings maybe about our middle class-

is that it didn't-- it wasn't just happenstance

is that it didn't- it wasn't just happenstance

that created the middle class.

that created the middle class

It wasn't just the invisible hand that did it.

It wasn't just the invisible hand that did it

Government really played a role.

Government really played a role

So walk us through a little bit of that.

So walk us through a little bit of that

Well, I wouldn't even say they played a role.

Well I wouldn't even say they played a role

They created it.

They created it

Our political leaders, after the Depression and World War

Our political leaders after the Depression and World War

II, decided, do we really want to bring back

II decided do we really want to bring back

all of the servicemen-- because it was mostly men at the time--

all of the servicemen- because it was mostly men at the time-

into an economy that had barely recovered from the Depression?

into an economy that had barely recovered from the Depression

And so they made the conscious decision

to create the middle class.

to create the middle class

It didn't just-- since I have a lot of Texans here,

It didn't just- since I have a lot of Texans here

it didn't just crop up like weeds in a field

after a Texas storm, right?

after a Texas storm right

It's there because we created it.

It's there because we created it

[LAUGHTER]

LAUGHTER

So let me just translate very quickly.

So let me just translate very quickly

[CHEERING]

CHEERING

It didn't just pop up like a bagel store in--

It didn't just pop up like a bagel store in-

OK.

Would that be-- OK.

Would that be- OK

Go ahead.

Go ahead

But that's exactly right.

But that's exactly right

And there were little things that I found so interesting.

And there were little things that I found so interesting

Prior to the New Deal, if you wanted to buy a house,

Prior to the New Deal if you wanted to buy a house

you couldn't get a 30-year mortgage that was amortized--

you couldn't get a 30-year mortgage that was amortized-

there were these-- and you had to put down 50% or even

there were these- and you had to put down 50 or even

more to even get in the game.

more to even get in the game

Yeah.

Yeah

And not only could you not get a 30-year mortgage,

And not only could you not get a 30-year mortgage

they didn't exist.

they didn't exist

And so when everyone sits around now, talking about,

And so when everyone sits around now talking about

well, you know, homeowners-- you ought to be able to buy--

well you know homeowners- you ought to be able to buy-

well when people had to put down 50% and you had maybe a 5

well when people had to put down 50 and you had maybe a 5

to 10-year repayment period, very

to 10-year repayment period very

few people could own a home.

few people could own a home

And so Congress allowed banks to create the 15 to 30-year

mortgage, which is why I argue in the book--

mortgage which is why I argue in the book-

and when I talk about it-- that if Congress wanted to fix

and when I talk about it- that if Congress wanted to fix

the problems that are going on now, if they wanted to restore

the problems that are going on now if they wanted to restore

the middle class, they could.

the middle class they could

Because they created the middle class with things like,

Because they created the middle class with things like

you know, creating a 15 to 30-year mortgage product.

you know creating a 15 to 30-year mortgage product

Now.

Now

Is it that the programs that we have now

are not sufficient to do it or that we

shifted the way we do it?

shifted the way we do it

So now they might say, well--

So now they might say well-

so in this, they establish, what,

so in this they establish what

the Federal Housing Authority?

the Federal Housing Authority

Now let's also be clear.

Now let's also be clear

These programs were for almost exclusively white people,

These programs were for almost exclusively white people

which is why we see such a gap in wealth and equity

that still exists.

that still exists

Yep, homeownership gap.

Yep homeownership gap

It's been 20-- basically, 25% gap

It's been 20- basically 25 gap

between white homeownership rates

and Black homeowner-- forever.

and Black homeowner- forever

And also, the wealth gap is largely

And also the wealth gap is largely

driven by the lack of housing wealth

in most Black households.

in most Black households

And by the way, that's because of,

And by the way that's because of

again, not the free market.

again not the free market

That was a manipulated market as well.

That was a manipulated market as well

You talk about redlining and blockbusting.

You talk about redlining and blockbusting

Well, and the other thing is, you

Well and the other thing is you

couldn't be approved for the FHA guaranteed

15 to 30-year mortgages.

15 to 30-year mortgages

And so if you can't get the mortgage loan, which is cheap,

And so if you can't get the mortgage loan which is cheap

it amortizes, then you're stuck in the really

it amortizes then you're stuck in the really

bad private market, which means that you pay too much.

bad private market which means that you pay too much

And then you live in a neighborhood where your homes

aren't going to appreciate in value

as much because up until the late 1960s,

as much because up until the late 1960s

'70s, racism was legal.

'70s racism was legal

I mean, our laws allowed--

I mean our laws allowed-

There were covenants even when--

There were covenants even when-

if it wasn't explicitly legal, there'd be homeowner

if it wasn't explicitly legal there'd be homeowner

association covenants.

association covenants

Exactly, yeah, that would say you

Exactly yeah that would say you

can't sell your home to certain types of people,

can't sell your home to certain types of people

and we know who those certain types of people were.

and we know who those certain types of people were

But you use, I think, to great effect,

But you use I think to great effect

your parents' rise to the middle class and the way

that they overcame that.

that they overcame that

But it was unusual, and they had to work harder to do it.

But it was unusual and they had to work harder to do it

Exactly.

Exactly

And so one of the things that I try to do in the book

is to show how my parents became and remained

middle class to then show why it's

so hard now for young people to do the same thing.

so hard now for young people to do the same thing

It was harder for my parents because they

were becoming middle class in the 1960s, 1970s.

were becoming middle class in the 1960s 1970s

And they were teachers. They were--

And they were teachers They were-

And they were teachers.

And they were teachers

But they knew they had to get a college degree.

But they knew they had to get a college degree

So at that time, you could actually

So at that time you could actually

get what I call a good job--

get what I call a good job-

full time, 40 hour a week job that

full time 40 hour a week job that

paid you enough to support your family without a college

degree-- not true now.

degree- not true now

But if you were Black then, you really

But if you were Black then you really

needed to get the college degree,

needed to get the college degree

or else you were really going to be fighting obstacles.

or else you were really going to be fighting obstacles

But yeah, my parents were able to go from being-- my mom

But yeah my parents were able to go from being- my mom

grew up on a farm.

grew up on a farm

My dad's parents-- my father's parents were laborers,

My dad's parents- my father's parents were laborers

but they were able to go to college.

but they were able to go to college

They didn't have to drown themselves

in student loan debt.

in student loan debt

They worked hard.

They worked hard

They got up every day.

They got up every day

They followed the rules.

They followed the rules

They bought homes.

They bought homes

There was racial steering from a lot

of the real-estate agents, but they were able to buy homes.

of the real-estate agents but they were able to buy homes

And you couldn't go on--

And you couldn't go on-

it wasn't like, you know, your parents

it wasn't like you know your parents

could look up on the internet and go, oh,

could look up on the internet and go oh

that's a good school system.

that's a good school system

Exactly.

Exactly

They had to take the word of whoever it was that was

pushing a certain thing.

pushing a certain thing

I mean, the agents are trying to push them

I mean the agents are trying to push them

into neighborhoods where the schools

weren't high-quality schools.

weren't high-quality schools

And my parents, again, understood, you've

And my parents again understood you've

got to put your kids in a school that at least

puts them in a position--

puts them in a position-

K-12 school-- that puts them in a position

K-12 school- that puts them in a position

that if they want to go to college,

that if they want to go to college

they'll be able to go to college.

they'll be able to go to college

So you have these tent posts of the middle class,

So you have these tent posts of the middle class

which is homeownership at reasonable down payments and

reasonable nonescalating-- you know,

reasonable nonescalating- you know

you make the point in the book that back then,

you make the point in the book that back then

mortgage rates were not tied to anything, so they

mortgage rates were not tied to anything so they

could jump in crazy ways.

could jump in crazy ways

So, you know, these mortgages that relatively flexible,

So you know these mortgages that relatively flexible

jobs that would give you pensions and health

care and would allow you some stability to go along--

care and would allow you some stability to go along-

are those the tent posts that we're now missing?

are those the tent posts that we're now missing

And how did we end up missing them?

And how did we end up missing them

Well, I'll answer the last part first

Well I'll answer the last part first

and then talk about the--

and then talk about the-

I call them markers in the book.

I call them markers in the book

The last-- the reason we've lost them is because political

The last- the reason we've lost them is because political

leaders-- and I mean at all levels--

leaders- and I mean at all levels-

local, state, and federal--

local state and federal-

have refused to exhibit the will to save the middle class.

have refused to exhibit the will to save the middle class

They have the ability.

They have the ability

There is nothing they fetishize more, though.

There is nothing they fetishize more though

I can't-- how often do politicians just say,

I can't- how often do politicians just say

I'm about lunch pail-- is sitting

I'm about lunch pail- is sitting

around the table and all that.

around the table and all that

So how have they missed that--

So how have they missed that-

the Mark between their rhetoric and the reality

of what they're doing?

of what they're doing

So I don't want to say what I--

So I don't want to say what I-

JON STEWART: You may. You may.

JON STEWART: You may You may

No, no, no.

No no no

In fact, if you want to, you can curse.

In fact if you want to you can curse

These people have heard everything tonight.

These people have heard everything tonight

[LAUGHTER]

LAUGHTER

I went after-- let me tell you something.

I went after- let me tell you something

[CHEERING]

CHEERING

I went after a beloved monkey today.

I went after a beloved monkey today

[LAUGHTER]

LAUGHTER

But no, what do you think?

But no what do you think

I think they have convinced lower-

I think they have convinced lower

and middle-income Americans to look horizontally to blame.

and middle-income Americans to look horizontally to blame

So we're doing tribes.

So we're doing tribes

The reason that you can't buy a house,

The reason that you can't buy a house

the reason that you don't have a good job,

the reason that you don't have a good job

is because that person over there

is taking your job from you.

is taking your job from you

Immigrants.

Immigrants

Immigrants.

Immigrants

Or diversity is now a bad word because it

doesn't mean what it was supposed

to mean, just have lots of different people

to mean just have lots of different people

from different walks of life.

from different walks of life

And so once you convince people to shift blame horizontally,

And so once you convince people to shift blame horizontally

they don't look up vertically.

they don't look up vertically

Because if you look vertically, you

Because if you look vertically you

see that the only trickle economics that we're seeing now

is trickle up.

is trickle up

So wealth and income is trickling up from middle-class

families to the top.

families to the top

But if you convince people that your enemy is horizontally,

But if you convince people that your enemy is horizontally

then they don't notice that there's

a whole lot of wealth and income

that's going up to others.

that's going up to others

I'm curious what you think.

I'm curious what you think

Because I would-- if I were judging this on party,

Because I would- if I were judging this on party

I would say the Republican Party would

convince about horizontal.

convince about horizontal

But the Democratic Party would convince you

that this deregulatory-- or what

that this deregulatory- or what

they would call neoliberal economics-- works,

they would call neoliberal economics- works

that it's become a subsidy economy or a gig economy.

that it's become a subsidy economy or a gig economy

We'll retrain you.

We'll retrain you

We'll do all that.

We'll do all that

Have they also failed in their political will

or in the programs that they-- is it a design

or in the programs that they- is it a design

flaw in those programs?

flaw in those programs

I think they just haven't been paying attention.

I think they just haven't been paying attention

So one of the things I say in the book

is that it's not just the middle class is suffering

because of one thing.

because of one thing

They're suffering because of everything.

They're suffering because of everything

So if you think of the markers of the middle class,

So if you think of the markers of the middle class

they can't afford-- you can't afford to buy a home.

they can't afford- you can't afford to buy a home

You have a job, but it's not what I call a good job.

You have a job but it's not what I call a good job

It's not 40 hours a week, full time, with benefits,

It's not 40 hours a week full time with benefits

where you are called an employee and not a contractor.

where you are called an employee and not a contractor

We've gutted unions.

We've gutted unions

People can't afford to--

People can't afford to-

you can't get sick.

you can't get sick

Because if you get sick and you can't work--

Because if you get sick and you can't work-

most people don't have savings.

most people don't have savings

So it's not one little thing.

So it's not one little thing

It's just a series of paper cuts since roughly the 1980s.

It's just a series of paper cuts since roughly the 1980s

But to follow up on your point about subsidies, if we actually

But to follow up on your point about subsidies if we actually

said, let's let people work in the gig economy

said let's let people work in the gig economy

if you want to pick up a little money, that's fine.

if you want to pick up a little money that's fine

But you shouldn't have to piece together three jobs--

But you shouldn't have to piece together three jobs-

JON STEWART: Three gigs.

JON STEWART: Three gigs

Three gigs, yeah, because you can't find a 40 hour a week,

Three gigs yeah because you can't find a 40 hour a week

fulltime job, where you are called an employee

fulltime job where you are called an employee

and you have the benefits that go along with being

an employee in this country.

an employee in this country

So this brings us to--

So this brings us to-

because I think that diagnosis is exactly right.

because I think that diagnosis is exactly right

So what is the medicine?

So what is the medicine

What is the remedy?

What is the remedy

How do you re-engage a middle class New Deal?

How do you re-engage a middle class New Deal

Is it just about recreating that those FHA programs or

the GI Bill in a different form?

the GI Bill in a different form

What's the way that it could be done?

What's the way that it could be done

Well, what I always say is I want each local politician

Well what I always say is I want each local politician

and I want each voter to pick one thing.

and I want each voter to pick one thing

So if you want to focus on college,

So if you want to focus on college

let's make sure that people can afford to go to college

and not have to drown themselves in debt.

and not have to drown themselves in debt

So pick college if you want to.

So pick college if you want to

If you want to focus on-- because actually,

If you want to focus on- because actually

now I don't spend as much time talking

about home ownership rates because people can't even--

about home ownership rates because people can't even-

can't find affordable housing to rent.

can't find affordable housing to rent

So if you are living in a neighborhood,

So if you are living in a neighborhood

particularly a gated community type neighborhood,

particularly a gated community type neighborhood

and you were saying things like, oh, well,

and you were saying things like oh well

we can't change our homeowner association rules because those

people may move in, and we need to make sure that we keep these

people may move in and we need to make sure that we keep these

exclusionary zoning laws because you have to have

a 3,500-square-foot home on an acre lot with a huge setback--

a 3500-square-foot home on an acre lot with a huge setback-

I mean, anytime you have those kind of rules in place

I mean anytime you have those kind of rules in place

for housing, what you're saying is,

for housing what you're saying is

we don't want the middle class to live here.

we don't want the middle class to live here

And so the argument--

And so the argument-

JON STEWART: So they're now zoned out.

JON STEWART: So they're now zoned out

They're zoned out.

They're zoned out

Exactly.

Exactly

Because the developers can't build

a small home because the zoning rules don't allow it.

a small home because the zoning rules don't allow it

And the last thing-- and my favorite thing to always

And the last thing- and my favorite thing to always

attack, which usually puts me in, like,

attack which usually puts me in like

the same company with like the Cato Institute folks--

the same company with like the Cato Institute folks-

JON STEWART: More libertarian

Yeah-- is the mortgage interest deduction.

Yeah- is the mortgage interest deduction

It needs to go.

It needs to go

Because that helps people that already have something.

Because that helps people that already have something

It helps certain people that already have something.

It helps certain people that already have something

Most people, the middle class, they don't

Most people the middle class they don't

itemize their deductions.

itemize their deductions

So they actually get zero benefit

from the mortgage interest.

from the mortgage interest

JON STEWART: They're doing the easy form.

JON STEWART: They're doing the easy form

Exactly.

Exactly

And so what we're doing is we're subsidizing the housing

expenses of rich people.

expenses of rich people

And so a lot of what we're doing--

And so a lot of what we're doing-

I would love to see big, bold, broad things, like an FHA

I would love to see big bold broad things like an FHA

or a program like that.

or a program like that

But what I would really want people to do

is look at what we're doing now.

is look at what we're doing now

What can we eliminate?

What can we eliminate

The mortgage interest deduction, exclusionary zoning.

The mortgage interest deduction exclusionary zoning

What can we do--

What can we do-

another thing I talk about a lot in the book

is, the typical school day is not

is the typical school day is not

aligned at all with the typical workday for parents.

aligned at all with the typical workday for parents

So if we want to make it easy for a lower,

So if we want to make it easy for a lower

middle-income family to be able to function,

middle-income family to be able to function

why are we still pretending like we're a bunch of farmers?

why are we still pretending like we're a bunch of farmers

We don't need to have the schools opening at 7:00 or 8:00

in the morning and then shutting at 2:00 or 3:00--

in the morning and then shutting at 2:00 or 3:00-

people have to go to work, right?

people have to go to work right

And then you have the whole summer off--

And then you have the whole summer off-

well, that's lovely if you--

well that's lovely if you-

since I picked on Texas before-- if you

since I picked on Texas before- if you

summer in the Hamptons.

summer in the Hamptons

But it's not--

But it's not-

Pick on Jersey Shore.

Pick on Jersey Shore

All right.

All right

Jersey Shore is still cool.

Jersey Shore is still cool

- OK, still cool. - Thank you.

OK still cool Thank you

All right.

All right

But it's not so great if you actually

have to work during the summer and

you got to figure out something to do with your kids.

you got to figure out something to do with your kids

So the thing that I want political leaders to do

and voters to do is to ask, what

and voters to do is to ask what

could we do, what one change could we

could we do what one change could we

make that could make it easier for the middle class to attain

one of those markers?

one of those markers

And to get that-- and it strikes me as--

And to get that- and it strikes me as-

to run on a middle-class New Deal

would be a banger for voters.

would be a banger for voters

I mean, it strikes me as, more people than not

I mean it strikes me as more people than not

are trapped in that pinch between child care and health

care and elder care and education

and government creating common-sense kinds

of programs for that.

of programs for that

So it strikes me as odd that that

hasn't been the focus-- there has, like,

hasn't been the focus- there has like

on the more populist areas of the right and the left,

on the more populist areas of the right and the left

but not so much full stop.

but not so much full stop

And I think the reason it hasn't is because,

And I think the reason it hasn't is because

can you imagine how powerful it would

be if the middle class unites?

be if the middle class unites

So if you have horizontal unity,

So if you have horizontal unity

that means that, ooh, we're looking up now.

that means that ooh we're looking up now

We see where the problem is.

We see where the problem is

So I actually sort of understand

why no one wants to have all of the middle class to unite,

why no one wants to have all of the middle class to unite

because that would be a formidable voting bloc.

because that would be a formidable voting bloc

It would be incredibly formidable.

It would be incredibly formidable

And it strikes me--

And it strikes me-

as unions get weaker, isn't our representation supposed to be--

as unions get weaker isn't our representation supposed to be-

our unions, like, aren't they the ones

our unions like aren't they the ones

who are supposed to be-- why does it always

who are supposed to be- why does it always

have to be that, well, you guys have to get together and

have to be that well you guys have to get together and

have meetings and come up-- why can't

have meetings and come up- why can't

our representatives be the lobbyists for the middle class?

our representatives be the lobbyists for the middle class

Like, it strikes me as insane that that that's not the case.

Like it strikes me as insane that that that's not the case

Well, and particularly since we've gutted unions,

Well and particularly since we've gutted unions

I mean, since the 1980s, they've done

I mean since the 1980s they've done

everything possible.

everything possible

If the state right-to-work laws don't kill them--

If the state right-to-work laws don't kill them-

I mean, I'm not going to refer to the United States

I mean I'm not going to refer to the United States

Supreme Court the way that others have--

Supreme Court the way that others have-

You're the nicest person on the show,

You're the nicest person on the show

maybe even in the whole building.

maybe even in the whole building

[LAUGHTER]

LAUGHTER

Maybe on the entirety of the West Side.

Maybe on the entirety of the West Side

It's because I'm from Memphis.

It's because I'm from Memphis

OK, very nice.

OK very nice

They mind their business in Memphis.

They mind their business in Memphis

Exactly, have to be polite.

Exactly have to be polite

Absolutely.

Absolutely

You have to be very polite.

You have to be very polite

It's-- because what they've convinced

It's- because what they've convinced

everybody is that capital is more important than labor.

everybody is that capital is more important than labor

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm

And what I would say is they've convinced

everybody that rich people are more important than everybody.

everybody that rich people are more important than everybody

JON STEWART: They've earned it--

JON STEWART: They've earned it-

They've earned it.

They've earned it

--instead of it being just a lot of it

-instead of it being just a lot of it

being happenstance and luck.

being happenstance and luck

Hello.

Hello

True.

True

Well, it's a fabulous book, and I just think it's

Well it's a fabulous book and I just think it's

such a great prescription.

such a great prescription

And everybody interested in reconstituting a healthier--

And everybody interested in reconstituting a healthier-

because if you build a society on stronger tent poles,

because if you build a society on stronger tent poles

on stronger foundation, we all benefit.

on stronger foundation we all benefit

Everyone's better off.

Everyone's better off

Because they always say like, oh, no,

Because they always say like oh no

it'll help the rich because a rising tide lifts all boats.

it'll help the rich because a rising tide lifts all boats

And you're like, well, not if you don't have a boat.

And you're like well not if you don't have a boat

Then it's just water and you drown.

Then it's just water and you drown

Then you're drowning.

Then you're drowning

Well, thank you so much.

Well thank you so much

The Middle-Class New Deal available now.

The Middle-Class New Deal available now

Mechele Dickerson.

Mechele Dickerson

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